Potential change to goblin "production"

[Admin]

Hey all,

We're in talks about potentially changing the way that turning in goblin stamps works for production items at our events. We'd like your feedback on the issue.

First of, let me explain where we're coming from.

Under the current rules, a player can turn in 100 goblin stamps to receive 100 levels of production items once per month. This goblin production is the equivalent of 25 levels of production skills, assuming that the craftsman has access to a workshop and then pays in-game coin for the additional production. Under the ninth edition rules, this goblin production can be used to create anything that a craftsman PC could make, with the exception of a few special items that a smithing character can create.

In my opinion, and in the opinion of some others I have spoken with, goblin production has almost entirely eviscerated the value of taking production skills as a character. Further, it has had a negative effect on the in-game economy.

Joe West came up with what seems to be a good solution to this problem, and it's one I would like some feedback on.

Under the new proposal, players would be allowed to turn in goblin stamps to produce anything that their character is able to produce. The goblin stamp expenditure would represent the character spending his time between events stockpiling the things that he is producing at events.

All other characters would still be able to turn in goblin stamps for coin, that they could then use in-game to purchase production items from NPC's and those who produce them.

A possible addendum to this might include the option to buy some items at logistics to represent a character spending their time buying from merchants between events. These purchases, however, would be at higher cost than the current market value of 1 silver piece per level of production that the current goblin market creates.

Obviously, this would be a drastic change, but it's one that could go a long ways toward creating a viable in-game economy for craftsmen.

What are your thoughts?

[Culloden]

I think I like it but I might need to sit on it for a minute.
I agree that Nero economy is screwed and needs to be fixed.
I guess another idea might be to keep the cost the same for
Those without the skills but only let them spend 50
So there not just awarding goblins.

[Flinglecask Digroot]

An advantage of this sort of arrangement is that PC merchant type characters would be relevant. They can produce their normal amounts at events, and come in with additional stuff to sell through goblin expenditures. So they'll have a lot of supply.

The demand will be there too because the other PCs won't be able to walk in with stacks of stuff their characters couldn't produce, purchased through goblin buys. If I want scrolls, I need to find the resident scroll maker instead of magically walking in with a stack of them.

This creates a more vibrant in game PC:PC economy because crafter guy gets to make and sell things to other PCs, and the other PCs that otherwise would have bought the items with goblins can turn their goblins in for coin and use that coin to buy from the merchant PCs.

It seems more realistic and balanced to me, and maintains / creates a viable place in the game for PC crafters.

Thoughts?

[Bud Lewis]

I like the realism and feel of the idea and I think it would most definitely help balance the economy. But I believe there should still be ways to get things from other crafters, maybe via a higher cost, or maybe only being able to purchase so much.

For purchasing things with goblins one can't craft I purpose these two possible amendments.

1) If you cannot make it, multiply the cost by 1.5 (Round up). Thus things like cure light wounds elixirs which normally cost one, would cost two. It's reasonable that any alchemist worth his salt has a handful at any time. Hell I give them away like candy. So low cost items are still relatively low. But something like a vertigo gas poison bumps from 6 to 9. A rather signifigant jump, showing the rare and more difficult the item, the harder it is to get the crafter to let go of it.

2) If someone has a skill, but is not high enough level or cannot make enough production to make the item. So using vertigo gas poison as an example again. Base cost of 6, but say Alchemist 1 only has 4 ranks in the skill (give the guy a break, he just learned he can't throw anymore. XD) but sill wants to purchase a vertigo. He should have to tack the difference from his skill and the cost onto the total. For a total of 8 stamps. This shouldn't cost Alchemist 1 any of his actualy production levels, but it shows he can't help in the process enough or supply materials for the item that most normal purchasers could not.

My apologies for only using alchemy as an example, its the only cost chart I know off of my head while I'm at work.

As a side note: It completely cripples a character idea I had. But I'm still good with it

[Sticks]

I personally love it if it could be implemented on a national level.

My fear, and one of my biggest complaints/problems with the nero system in general is what I refer to as the "what other chapters are doing". Normally this wouldnt be an issue, but since players from those games can travel to this game they have the ability to affect it both positively and negatively.

If we implement this rule, but no other chapter does are we being fair to our players that travel? They have a lesser degree of access to those production items which can sometimes be vital or expected.

I tend to experience this first hand whenever I have travelled. I always loved going to an event with my one or two hard earned magic items and being really proud of my four column only to get laughed off the field by the warriors who had enough activates to emulate my four column, swung twice as hard, and had a transform that went up on a regular basis.

I guess the big question is how do you find a balance between running a good local game and still maintaining a nationally viable structure that does not penalize or handicap your players when they travel and at the same time doesn't penalize/handicap the local players when out of chapter visitors come to play (which I have also had very similar experiences to the above one).

I'm rambling again and for that I apologize. In simple words, I love the idea, I hate the cheese dickery and lack of oversight from the national/regional levels of this game and I wonder if changes like this only hurt when implemented on a limited scale.

-Evan

[Culloden]

Production goes through the chapter holding the event so if sticks were to travel to Nero timbuktoo, he would be able to spend 100 gobs on whatever he wanted.
The part the bothers me but I'm not sure will be to big a deal is when Bob from Nero timbuktoo travels to detroit, and he can't spend 100 or can't get as much and then he begins to whine ( we all know how those timbuktoo players are).

I like it I like it a lot after thinking bout it.

As much as I understand what you are going for Bud, and is does make sense I believe we need to make the system simple and easy. If you can make it standard price. If you can't double the price or half the gobs you can spend, I think is the best way to go. Just my two cooper

[Sticks]

Is production per day or per event?

Say I have 10 levels of scroll making, which per 9th edition I can get up to 40 levels of (10 base, 10 mastery, 10 materials, and 10 lab).

So do I get 80 levels for a weekend event, 40 per day (assuming I max out my production).

Not that this makes any difference on my opinion of this optional rule, it simply means that those 100 goblins stamps of production are not as much as I thought but still more then I think a non-crafter should be able to just get.

-Evan

[Flinglecask Digroot]

I think the simplest way to do this is to allow everyone to spend 100 goblins towards production (EDIT: per event or per month, whichever is less frequent). You spend them at a rate of 1 goblin/1 level ratio for anything your PC can create. You spend them at a rate of 3 goblins/1 level ration for anything your PC cannot create. Simple as that.

Why 3 goblins for things you can't create? (1) It creates an incentive to have crafting skills. (2) It limits supply from non-PC generated sources. (3) It helps to right the market to make sure PC crafters can make a profit.

On this last point, as a PC crafter with 10 levels, I can get 40 levels of production per game day, costing me 1 gold plus 2.5 gold in workshop expenditure (50 gold total, amortized across 10 events of two game days each every two years). To make any profit, I'd need to charge 1 silver per level, and that nets me only 5 silver profit per day, which is pathetic. A fairer price is 2 silver per level, and I could net 4.5 gold per day profit if I sold everything.

So PC crafters, to make a healthy profit that makes in-game sense, need to charge 2 silver per level. If the goblin ratio for PCs that couldn't make things was 2 goblins / level, then you haven't created any incentive at all to be a crafter or to buy from PC crafters. By making it 3 goblins / level, PCs who are not crafters still have some access to things they cannot make, but there is a nice bump for PCs that opted to go down the crafting road (a road that, since I have started playing LARPs, has been a total waste of build, but that may change with rules like this proposal).

Going with this 1 & 3 system is clean and easy. It creates the right incentives. It doesn't punish non-crafters because they can still get some items, albeit at higher expense.

As for Evan's point about people that travel, I see the argument, but I think we've got to do what we can within our control to fix the economy. We shouldn't allow an economy-breaking rule to persist locally just because everyone else is doing it. That's my take.

[Culloden]

Um oh yeah and obviously all barbarians get double production

[jordancbrun]

Plus, if a local rule gets multiple people backing it and wanting the change, it can change the system.

[Sticks]

I like the 1 and 3 system.

[Dieben]

I like the idea of a 1 and 3 as well.

[Bud Lewis]

Fine Cask. Capture exactly what I was trying to accomplish, in a signifigantly more simple and streamlined way. I see how it is. >.> Fine!

Hahaha, I approve of 3 to 1 system and I am most definitely not jealous I didn't think of it first. >.>

[tux]

My question is, what's stopping me from spending the build on one level of the appropriate crafting skill to bypass this rule completely at a near insignificant cost to myself?
It's what, three build per level of craftsman skill, right? So unless I'm missing something, there's nothing stopping me from spending less than a third of the build of one level on a skill just so i can take advantage of this system to continue throwing the in-game economy off-kilter.
I'm not capable of all those fancy maths you guys make use of to stop jerks like me from breaking a system, but i CAN poke holes.
Again, unless i missed something.

[Admin]

Tux,

You have to be able to make the actual thing that you are going to produce with goblin production.

So, if you buy one level of potion making, for example, the you can use goblin production to create as many first level potions as your heart desires at a rate of one goblin stamp per point of production. Want to make a level two potion? Now you're spending 3 per level until you upgrade your potion-making ability.

-Bill