A big thank you

[devling]

Evan,

I myself had been trying to get responces from Bill and Jay for a month or so. I didn't get a response so I picked up the phone and called Jay. When I got jay on the phone I asked are you avoiding me or is this ingame? "He said you will have to find out ingame" So I dropped it and then we talked for about 20 minutes on non nero related stuff and I talked to him a couple more times between the events just to chat. So I don't think it was anyone being stonewalled I think that everyone was treated equal and it was for plot reasons.

As for the event I loved the fact that everything was a surprise! Nothing happened in anyway that I would have expected it to go and it kept me guessing the entire time. Much better than waiting for things to happen that I could see coming.

Bill has always ran a hard game. 15 years ago it was a big deal because when the PC's from Detroit would go to different chapters we could out play, fight, cast, kill, roleplay most of the PC's in whatever chapter we went to. It's still the case PC's from Detroit went to Highborn's last event and when all of the PC's from Highborn wanted to flee the big Town Mod after 1 wave of NPC's I called them out and then Jerry and I commanded the PC's during the next 4 waves and we completed the mod. The only resurrection was a fighter from my group and he resurrected due to great roleplay! After he resurrected the PC's and NPC's came over and said they were sorry...

I'm just saying that Nero Detroit makes you a great player and you love it or you hate it.

Don't use emotions, Don't get upset, just step back and look at the game for what it is. A great game.

Sorry to address you personally I know others are thinking they way you do and I don't want to loose you or them.

Asa

[Gaeric]

Hey all!

Eric (AKA - 'Gaeric Mourningwood') here. I would like to echo the sentiment of thanks that a lot of the previous posters have shouted out. For my second NERO event ever in life, this was quite the polar opposite experience from my first. I met some awesome new people (Tempest, the Wild Elves sorority, Drako and Benezir briefly *sad face*), ate some great food (thanks, Evan), and got to know further some old faces (the men of Remlick).

As for being a new player, I can't comment on any of this or any other NERO chapter's past - I don't know it. All I know is that this weekend was an in-game ROUGH experience. Now, don't get me wrong - I am not one of those players who whines, bitches, and threatens to take my ball and go home the moment I don't get my way. In fact, I *like* being the new guy. I like the freedom that comes with making stupid mistakes because the moment suits me, and seeing if it falls or flies. Through this, and a solid mix of advice from those willing to share an opinion and help a brother out, I can truly learn the game's strategies, techniques, and style.

However, with that said, I felt like I never got the chance to really try any new strategies because of the sheer number of "Oh, God" mods and events thrown at the PC's throughout the entire weekend. Everything I learned is now simply game theory until i can test it out and see if it works for me. I'm not saying this weekend was a bad plot design - the fact that many of you are lauding it is proof to the contrary - but speaking strictly from a new player standpoint, it was very hard to get into the game and really feel like I was able to participate and make a solid contribution as a PC, simply because I, and a lot of the other low-leveled players, never got a chance to really take on anything.

Most of what was thrown at the PC's was stuff all of the high-levels had a hard time handling, often pushing the low-levels out of the way or into the Wards to handle it. Being a sidekick, I don't mind. In fact, I prefer it when faced with a situation in dangerous territory I know nothing about. But when Batman is sending Robin away to face the Joker's newest plot, you know shit's gotten really real.

I've read, heard, and was even earned that NERO Detroit's plot pulled no punches. I knew that going into the event. Despite this, I honestly didn't know what to expect. Knowing it's only my second event and knowing my characters is still Level 5, I decided to take him into the fray, head-long. Now I know what people are talking about when they mention the challenges of NERO Detroit.

But here's the thing: Knowing this now, and knowing 'Gaeric' is the highest level character I've got, I'm going to think long and hard before deciding to bring him back.

This has nothing to do the plot team, or the mods, or anything. If NERO Detroit makes things hard to challenge their players - awesome. All the power to them. One of these days, I will be bringing 'Gaeric' back to Sanctuary, but not until I feel he's ready. He's never going to truly learn the finer techniques of surviving all-out mayhem if he Perms before he even learns his spell incantations. I mean, you can't put someone on a balance beam for a day and then expect them to win gold at the Olympics the following weekend, you know? lol

And this past weekend definitely felt like the Olympics... (Which, again, is NOT a bad thing.)

I guess my point is, simply (in addressing Asa's last comment): if you want to encourage players to keep coming back (or, at least, the new ones), you've got to throw us a bone to cut our teeth with.

-Eric
"Gaeric Mourningwood"

[redherringj]

Well put, Eric. Nero and Alliance have taught me how important scaled encounters are to RPGs. Because of the rules that frame action in the game world, there are some situations where you as a character can do absolutely nothing. No flash of insight, roleplaying, or stroke of luck can help you. I really hate it when those moments strike, and it happens all the time in an unscaled world. Low level characters serve no point at all.

So, yeah, I don't know what to do. But I resent being told I HAVE to follow around higher level characters all the time to defend me, or else I'm a "stupid" player. And I don't see what I'm learning by playing in a world that offers me no role to play in the unfolding of events.

[Tyler Sevakis]

On the matter of scaling, I think that it is a bum wrap to say low level characters serve no purpose. If you can block a swing, run a message, or administer aide, then you're just learning the basics of this hobby. When I started, a majority of my events were spent running around like a fool carrying my fallen allies to healers and swinging ineptly at monsters. But this taught me to prioritize my allies, and to line/skirmish fight. The thing about NERO -at least that I can tel- is your abilities in game and what you can cope with, tend to scale with your own experience.

Getting beat down in one shot by death knights potentially taught me the most important thing of all, pick your battles. Just like in life, there is no such thing as 'scaled encounters'. A good player, or even a clever thinker will know what their place in a battle is, and will deviate from it at their own risk. Is there less room for error at our chapter? Yep. Were the encounters too difficult? Nope. The lessons I learned in my hectic single-digit levels and from watching higher level players I was 'forced' to travel with helped me survive this weekend.

As for the inability to get involved in roleplay, Im not entirely sure these accusations are fair. You engage someone in conversation, boom, you're roleplaying. You want to invest yourself in years of integrated plot? Better start making friends and putting in a damn solid effort, because you wouldnt expect to feel immersed in a book series if you started on novel 4, understand?

In the end, I had a blast at this event. I snarled myself hoarse as a werepire, I died and ran and sweat like an icy glass in the sun, and best of all, I and my friends survived another marketday, to be prepared for the next, and to avenge/make right the deaths and wrongs we witnessed before.

[Gaeric]

Oh, make no mistake - I did enjoy myself at this event for the very reasons you listed: I engaged in many conversations, relayed messages across the field between the Tavern and the Cabins multiple times, read about the history of Sanctuary in the Academy. There were a few times I even involved myself in skirmishes, but I usually had to fall back and run. And I ran. A lot.

That's about all I could do.

Sure, I can block a swing. *A* swing. (One.) I can't block four of them at once when the Sessuan (sp?) come roaring through decimating everything in their path while swinging insanely high weapon blows; despite being a Celestial Templar, I have the ability to administer aide via a Magic Object when the high-classed NPCs aren't camping the bodies to make sure they bleed out and die; and yes, although I found the books in the Acaedmy thrilling to read, I couldn't read enough of them in time to really catch up on what's been going on with this Chapter's plot enough to do anything but listen to the new plot elements and conversations. (On a small personal note, it was disheartening when I was shot down the few times I tried chiming in, even though I know it was done so completely in-game, in-character, and not intended to be personal.)

In terms of enemies to fight, there wasn't anything sent the PC's way I had any chance of defeating. Everyone said, "There's nothing wrong in running." I agree. "If you're going to die: die loudly." Agreed. "If you have to hide, pick a good spot and wait." Trifecta of solid advice. But this advice does not an entertaining weekend make when it's all you do.

Again - I'm not saying any of this just to piss'n'moan that, "NERO is HARD, y'all!" I'm merely making the comment that this past weekend WAS rough.

And, as I said, that is perfectly fine.

If the plot team wants to make it the roughest and toughest event any PC has ever seen in their life where no one is safe and one is more-than-75% likely to Perm their highest-level character: Go for it! (I, personally, would love to NPC that event.)

But you can't run a rough plot that challenges even the most seasoned of veterans, and then simultaneously turn around and say to the low-level players (who spent most of the weekend running, hiding, and screaming when they weren't getting their asses handed to them), "We hope you'll come back!" and wonder "Why?" when they say they're wary of doing so. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[Admin]

Eric and Redherringj,

First off, let me say THANK YOU for your posts. I mean that sincerely, because they are obviously honest and because they give me an opportunity to share a lot of insight about our game with you and other players. I believe that I am going to cut and paste your post and my responses (below) to another post on this board and sticky it so that it is there for everyone to read who comes out and plays our game.

From Eric: However, with that said, I felt like I never got the chance to really try any new strategies because of the sheer number of "Oh, God" mods and events thrown at the PC's throughout the entire weekend. Everything I learned is now simply game theory until i can test it out and see if it works for me. I'm not saying this weekend was a bad plot design - the fact that many of you are lauding it is proof to the contrary - but speaking strictly from a new player standpoint, it was very hard to get into the game and really feel like I was able to participate and make a solid contribution as a PC, simply because I, and a lot of the other low-leveled players, never got a chance to really take on anything.

I'm sorry that you never got a chance to take on anything during this event. I can tell you that there were a lot of goblins and lesser undead that went out during the event that would have been appropriate targets for you to fight. Unfortunately, there is no way to target them at new players. Too often, I would watch as those weaker NPCs were cut down by high-level PCs.

I normally try to run modules that are directed at low-level characters, to give them an opportunity to step away from the dangerous environment where the event is taking place and deal with a problem that is appropriate to their skill set. Unfortunately, we never had enough NPCs to allow me to do that this weekend. The modules were written and sitting in my bag at the logisitics room, but could not be run due to staffing.

For the next event, I can promise you that these modules will be run. We are putting together a plan that will ensure that we have the necessary NPCs to entertain you.

From Redherringj Well put, Eric. Nero and Alliance have taught me how important scaled encounters are to RPGs. Because of the rules that frame action in the game world, there are some situations where you as a character can do absolutely nothing. No flash of insight, roleplaying, or stroke of luck can help you. I really hate it when those moments strike, and it happens all the time in an unscaled world. Low level characters serve no point at all.

So, yeah, I don't know what to do. But I resent being told I HAVE to follow around higher level characters all the time to defend me, or else I'm a "stupid" player. And I don't see what I'm learning by playing in a world that offers me no role to play in the unfolding of events.

Outside of fights, there are always roles for low-level characters to play. Aside from those mentioned above, there are lots of plot NPCs in and out during events. I spent a long stint at this event sitting around organizing components as Azayer. Anyone could have come up to me and talked to me at that point.

Now, I assume that you really were talking about serving no purpose in fights. In our campaign, there are always going to be times where a low level character "serves no point at all" in fights. I think there are always opportunities to make yourself useful by doing the sorts of things that Tyler and Eric mentioned, but there is no getting around that a 3rd or 5th level character played by a new player is not going to be very effective often. An experienced player can take the same character and be very useful.

I don't think it's fair to call a player stupid based on the way that their character acts. If you are a new player and you're playing a bereserking barbarian who runs headlong into every fight, that does not make you a "stupid player." If you go through with that plan, it makes you a damned fine roleplayer.

From Eric If the plot team wants to make it the roughest and toughest event any PC has ever seen in their life where no one is safe and one is more-than-75% likely to Perm their highest-level character: Go for it! (I, personally, would love to NPC that event.)

But you can't run a rough plot that challenges even the most seasoned of veterans, and then simultaneously turn around and say to the low-level players (who spent most of the weekend running, hiding, and screaming when they weren't getting their asses handed to them), "We hope you'll come back!" and wonder "Why?" when they say they're wary of doing so. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Jay and I never, ever ask ourselves that question. We never wonder "why" players don't come back to our chapter. We are not trying to run a game that is a fit for everyone. We are looking for a very specific type of player.

The player who will truly enjoy NERO Detroit is one who spends their first event running and scared and powerless. They feel useless. None of their fellow PCs will listen to them when they try to offer advice and suggestions. They get squashed by the Sessuar or the Blood Pack or Assitanious. They leave the event feeling broke and ineffective and useless.

And, when they get home, they say: "I'll show them."

They get together with their friends between events. They practice fighting, casting, and group tactics. They learn to maximize every bit of skill that their character has on paper. They make donations to the chapter so that they can start getting weekly goblin blankets so that, as their skill as a player rises, the skill of their character rises, too.

And then they come back and show everyone what they're all about.

This game is not for everyone. I don't want to run a game that is for everyone. Our primary mission statement at NERO Detroit can be summed up as follows:

1. Give players a non-linear plotline that requires them to think and that is populated with intelligent NPCs with personalities.

2. Give players the ability to influence, change, direct, and directly affect those plotlines through their choices.

3. Give players the opportunity to achieve true moments or heroism or villainy.

Number 3 is the one that is the sticking point that fuels this discussion. We run devastatingly dangerous plot because it makes number 3 possible, in our opinion. If the campaign world is scaled, then you can't really be a hero, can you? If the PCs are never overwhelmed and outgunned, then victory is meaningless because it was pre-ordaned by the stat cards.

Thanks again for your posts. I hope that this long-winded response helps to give you an idea of why we run things the way that we do.

-Bill

P.S. If only there were some way to go up levels as your character while learning the mechanics of the game without putting your character's life at risk. That way, you could wait until your character was ready to deal with the hell-hole that is these Northern Lands. I mean, if there was something like that, it sure would be nice, wouldn't it? Oh wait... there is! It's called NPCing. And man, as this event showed, we sure could use a few more.

[redherringj]

"If the plot team wants to make it the roughest and toughest event any PC has ever seen in their life where no one is safe and one is more-than-75% likely to Perm their highest-level character: Go for it! (I, personally, would love to NPC that event.)"

"I mean, if there was something like that, it sure would be nice, wouldn't it? Oh wait... there is! It's called NPCing. And man, as this event showed, we sure could use a few more"

Now I see what you're doing, you devious bastard!

[redherringj]

Sure there were some low level goblin encounters, but to be fair there were a few amazingly powerful gobbos out there that a n00b couldn't touch.

The earlier statement about trust is a good point. In an unscaled world plot can not be trusted, because there is no reason to. Lack of scale takes nothing into consideration. Once again, to paraphrase Eric: "fine if you want to do that." And to paraphrase Evan: "maybe the game and I are going in different directions."

And if a weekend of Nero means I get to be a messenger, coward, and burden then I'd rather just play a tabletop for a few hours where I can be a hero instead. The beds are more comfortable anyway and I get to drink.

[Admin]

Sure there were some low level goblin encounters, but to be fair there were a few amazingly powerful gobbos out there that a n00b couldn't touch.

Almost every NPC that we sent out this weekend was a two-spell kill. There were a few exceptions. Specifically, the Blood Pack had resists, there were a few rogues with dodges, and the Sessuar Hounds have their own form of defense. Aside from these exceptions, a starting PC caster has multiple spells in their arsenal that would take out the vast majority of the NPCs that were out there.

A starting fighter can now start the game with two proficiencies. Aside from Assitanious and the Blood Pack, none of the NPC spellcasters that we sent out were capable of casting while taking body damage. And none of them had armor. That means that, regardless of how big their column is, the second weapon strike by a PC renders them utterly unable to cast spells.

I am not throwing these examples out there to argue, but rather to point out that the mechanics of the game allow for even low-level characters to be useful.

The earlier statement about trust is a good point. In an unscaled world plot can not be trusted, because there is no reason to. Lack of scale takes nothing into consideration.

I suppose this is true. In a scaled game world, you can trust that the plot team has created encounters that are of an appropriate difficulty level for the PCs present.

I've never tried to do this, mind you, but I don't know if it's actually possible. One of the weakest sets of NPCs that we sent out at the last weekend killed two exceptionally high level characters. The Sessuar killed many more and they were not nearly as powerful as the Blood Pack, who didn't kill anyone.

The only way that you can actually scale an encounter to get the results you want as a plot person is to manipulate things on the fly, in my opinion. This can take the form of NPCs letting up on the gas and intentionally throwing fights. It can take the form of NPCs dropping when they're not really down yet in order to let the PCs win. I've seen chapters that use transforms to great effect to achieve proper scaling. If the PCs begin to lose, up go the transforms and then they win. It's like a "get out of jail free" card.

So what can you trust with an unscaled chapter? You can trust that we're never going to increase the stats of an NPC just because we need him to be tougher. You can trust that if you encounter a 100 year old NPC, he is likely to be highly skilled and might be someone you should think twice about messing with.

But most importantly to me, you can trust that when you win, you have really accomplished something. Nothing is being handed to you. You didn't just squeak by with a passing grade by defeating the bad guys who had been intentionally scaled so that you could beat them.

Lots and lots and lots of people are not interested in this style of play. I have seen so many people come and go over the years of my on-again-off-again relationship with this chapter. I don't hold it against anyone if it's not what they're looking for.

And if a weekend of Nero means I get to be a messenger, coward, and burden then I'd rather just play a tabletop for a few hours where I can be a hero instead. The beds are more comfortable anyway and I get to drink.

For the future, the changes that we are making will ensure that everyone will have opportunities to go on scaled modules during the event. The world will remain unscaled, but we will be running these modules to give smaller groups the opportunity to deal with encounters that are catered to both their in-game desires and their out-of-game levels. I hope that this will add more fun for all of the players at the events.

For me, your last statement here really hit the nail on the head in summing up why I LARP. "I'd rather just play a tabletop for a few hours where I can be a hero instead."

We all get to be heroes in tabletop. We get to be involved in every aspect of the story on an intimate level because we have the game master's undivided attention.

But there are limits to the heights that tabletop games can take you. Have you ever groaned while someone at a gaming convention regails you with the amazing feats that their tabletop character accomplished? I know I have. Why aren't we impressed with their accomplishments? For me, it's because I know that 99% of game masters have set them up to succeed. Of course they won. So it's no big deal.

These same limitations apply to a scaled NERO weekend. "We defeated Guxx Unfadoo, the Greater Death Elemental, before he could swallow all of Ravenholt!" Well, sure, of course you did. Plot wasn't going to just let the whole chapter disappear and start from scratch, were they?

To shorten what has become a really long post, if the PCs never fail, they never really succeed. Well, not in any meaningful sense, in my opinion.

[Madison Rizzo]

Eric,

As a new NERO player, and playing a new character I know what you mean. My very first event here was at the troll lands and the academy. I think I dropped at least 7 times during the event. As I had no clue what the hell I was doing and Tora had little spells she could cast. I almost peed my pants my first event in fear of some of the more powerful things that came out. There was one point when we were having a big battle at the academy building where those freaking dogs came out saying "PREPARE TO DIE 100 SLAY!" And I was like.......well I'm screwed.... Or when we were kidnapped by goblins TWICE that I was like great.......I'm about to resurrect. It really would not have mattered since it was my first weekend, but I had no desire to res.

I spent a lot of my first event asking questions and trying to figure out whats going on. Nights before and after the event I asked Jay a zillion questions to try to figure out what had happened in the multiple events I missed. Tell you what, I still don't know everything. The plot at Nero Detroit is very complex and it involves a lot of names and faces. What's cool about being new (and short and unnoticeable) Is you will hear A LOT of things you are not supposed to hear.

These experiences made me realize how dangerous Sanctuary and the Academy is. As Tora gets higher up in level and I am learning how to play and what to do in certain situations, and not having my flight instinct take over so much, I feel SO much more confident. I went into my 3rd event feeling like I could ACTUALLY defend myself. Which for the most part I did alright on. I also feel like I am more capable of doing certain things. Going into my first event I ran from EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING.

Also Eric a tip for the future, if Ass and Toes tries to shake your hand back away slowly and run like hell! (That's a actually a bad idea don't do that.)

Love your friend,
Madison Rizzo XD

[Flinglecask Digroot]

Eric/Gaeric - Were you the guy with one weapon who I think was an elf in light colored clothes? You were reading books in the academy when you first met my team (The Scribes, in green with silver diamond on the chest)?

[redherringj]

I guess I ignored the name of this thread...

To back up: Thanks to plot, NPCs, and everyone who came out to make sure we were able to adventure with this chapter again!

I forgot to say that.

[Borak Logan]

Bill,
Is it still rules policy that if you doubt a NPC abilities you can ask to see his/her NPC card, or ask for a marshall?

[jay]

Pat,
Yes, every NPC that goes out has a laminated stat card. A PC has the right to ask to check or for a marshal to check a NPC's stat card.

[Tyler Sevakis]

I run my tabletop games exactly the way Bill and Jay run NERO Detroit. I can understand that a lack of perceived scale can confuse players or maybe make them unsure of their place in the grand scheme, but that's just it, it's kinda like life!

The truth is, not knowing what's out there or what you can take at face value makes every encounter a risk, and every event a learning experience.